Maintaining Your Mojo 20 Years After Founding Finder

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I kind of accidentally ended up becoming an advisor to businesses, and what happened was like I put out a LinkedIn post, over 170 companies reached out, and yeah, I was like, this is insane.

Hello and welcome. Budri Gamawarra from the Gadigal lands here in Sydney. It's time for Startup 360, your weekly podcast. About founder fun, more than founder mode. I'm Simon Thompson, and I'm Angela Campbell. Welcome. How's your week been?

It has been a good week. I feel like what has it been? Oh, actually, I was in Queensland last weekend, so I feel like the sun was shining and life was good. But I don't think you had that here in Sydney.

Well, you were lucky the sun was shining given the tropical cyclone Narelle.

Yeah.

At least she calmed down a little bit before crossing the coast, which was good news. For the Queenslanders.

Absolutely.

I had fun. I kind of was doing my childhood rock and roll thing. I have an old mate, a British musician who lives in New York. For any of our older, older listeners, a guy called Lloyd Cole, and he did some great songs. He was, he was so cool when I was a young man. I wanted to grow up and be like him. And nowadays we go out for long lunches and talk about golf. And he was doing some concerts here in Sydney, so went along and had a great time. And we went for ice cream at Messina and, and just had, had a lot of fun. So it was, it was a really nice week. He comes out and tours every couple of years and it just takes me back a little bit, I think. But we were joking about the fact that probably about 10 years ago he used to make a joke at the end of the show about how I'll be finishing 2 songs so you can ring the babysitter and let them know that you'll be home in 20 minutes.

Very considerate.

Yeah. Now he was like, he said, I know a lot of you have been coming to these concerts for a long time, and I know a lot of your partners have been forced to come to these concerts for a long time. So I want to thank you for being here as well. It was very, it was very sweet. He's very droll and very funny. But he wrote, writes some great songs, still writes great songs. But he did Perfect Skin, Forest Fire, Are You Ready to Be Heartbroken? And, and just so much fun. Wow. And we all sang along. There's one of the songs where we sort of, we took, we all had to sing back to him about getting off the drugs.

Sounds like a great time.

Look, before we go any further, I do want to say that Startup 360 is supported by Deal. Hire, manage, and pay anyone anywhere. Thank you to Deel for their support. So let's get straight into the deal spiel. Oh, actually, one more important thing. Who's on the show this week, Magella?

We are meeting with Jeremy Cabral, who is the co-founder of finder.com.

Which has just turned 20. 20. I can't believe that. I think when Frank and Fred kicked off, uh, in 2006, Here in Sydney, just this little idea about credit card comparisons, this extraordinary business now. Then Jeremy joined them a couple of years later and he spent 16 years in a leadership role there before he stepped down late last year. So it'll be interesting to hear what he's been up to. Maybe it's just all been fishing and golf too.

Guess we'll find out.

I know he's only 40, so I think he's a little bit more active than that with a couple of things going on.

He's been busy.

Big news week. A few different things going on I want to point out because we've covered them on Startup Daily. First one was Google going, we're not spending $20 billion on data centers here in Australia because we're really, really worried that we might have to pay tax at the same corporate rate as anyone else. I was intrigued by this story when it dropped in the Fin. Probably the first reason is none of us, as far as I know, knew that Google planned to spend $20 billion on data centers here. There was a big announcement last year from Amazon and AWS that they were doing that. So this thing that they're now— they have now put on hold was something that we're all a little bit intrigued by. But I did go back and have a look at the numbers for Google, which 5, 6 years ago had a gross revenue in this country of around about I think it was $8 billion. Interestingly, when it filed its returns in 2024 with the regulator, that revenue was $1.9 billion. So it seems like they're having a pretty tough time here. Their profit was only a little over $360 mil, and I think they paid about $83 mil in tax. Now, I'm not a big fan of tax via revenue because it doesn't reflect your costs, but It is a software business and I kind of feel like if even on $2 mil, if your profitability in this country is only $364 mil or so, you're struggling as a software business. Your margins probably should be a little bit higher. So no wonder they can't afford to pay tax and they can't afford to build data centres here. Intriguing story, that one.

Yeah. And there's a lot of big spending actually across Everyone. Everyone. What is it? I saw a stat the other day. It was projected to, uh, between Amazon, Alphabet, Google, Microsoft, and Meta together, they're about $635 to $700 billion in AI infrastructure, mostly on chips, servers, and new expanded data centers.

Which is why Jensen Huang and Nvidia are one of the world's most valuable companies now. But Google is, uh, and its parent company Alphabet is the 3rd most valuable business in the world. It's worth about $5.5 trillion. So I can't see them missing out on this opportunity. You know, we've got Firmus here, the local business that is also building a lot. But this one, this is the company, remember, that when we did the news media bargaining code said we might have to shut down search here in Australia. Of course, didn't happen. But honestly, it's like, please, big tech, Stop carrying on like a fucking soccer player and diving in the goal square in the hope that you get a free kick. It's just enough. They deny that they're after a free kick, but honestly, honestly, honestly, no. Which leads me, of course, to the Tech Council. And they put out a report. They had their big meeting at their big soiree down in Canberra this week where all the the bigwigs of the Tech Council, which of course is a lot of global tech companies along with some of Australia's leading billionaires, to welcome politicians and explain how fabulous tech is. They put out a report saying the Australian tech sector is worth about 9% of GDP and roughly a quarter of a trillion dollars. Now, the thing that intrigued me about this report was a couple of data points in there. One was that Direct tech itself has grown by about 33% over the last 5 years to a little over $120 billion today. But then the wild part is that indirect tech, which is where they say, you know, tech is playing a key role in other industries, whether it's, you know, finance and banking or mining or healthcare or whatever, that doubled in value. Over that five-year period, and it's now worth almost as much as direct tech, which is how they got this number. And it sounds great, and it sounds really impressive. But the interesting thing that I also noticed in this report, which is you know technology is productivity engine, is that the old Tech Council Jobs Plan of 1.2 million. jobs in Australia by 2030 went missing in this report. And there was a couple of, let's just say, sleight of hand moments where they said nearly 200,000 jobs have been created. The figure is actually 161,000, which is slightly different as round numbers go. Round your errors. And it still sits about a million, under a million. But that's where the figure's been for a while. And I went on to sort of say, That the interesting thing there, of course, is we've got the chair of the Tech Council is Scott Farquhar from Atlassian, a company that's getting rid of 1,600 people, 10% of its workforce. You know, there's a lot of job cuts. WiseTech Global, of course, Richard White was ever so briefly a couple of years ago a director of the Tech Council before things went pear-shaped. There's a lot of companies right now that are cutting back on tech jobs. And it seems like the Tech Council has just put that idea of jobs, which of course was something the Labor government loved as a key political ambition, because what politician doesn't like getting up and going jobs, jobs, jobs? Doesn't seem to be the biggest priority now. And now they're sort of saying, hey, it's all about GDP and productivity.

Yeah, I suppose it's interesting. You've got obviously a very rapidly evolving market and It'd be interesting to see if those goalposts that they set remain the same or if they're rapidly evolving them. I think there's a, I don't wanna say clear, but like definitely a causality between the two at the moment. We're starting to see probably just a lot of tech companies that are just rebalancing their balance sheet or restructuring their balance sheet to probably pay for things like AI data centers and all the rest as well, because that's really where the bottlenecks are. So. But interestingly, I thought from this report they were saying that there was about a 50%— the tech is now the second largest contributor to Australia's GDP after mining. And then it's growing 50% faster than the rest of the economy, which is— I didn't realize. I guess it does when you look back at it, but lots of growth. But it doesn't— there's got to be something underlying it too, because it doesn't seem to be adding up, as you say.

There's a lot to unpack in it. It is an extensive report. It was based on 2025 ABS data from the Business Longitudinal Analysis Data Environment, BLADE as it's known. So I don't know if that makes them Blade Runners, but the report is called Technology is Australia's Productivity Engine. You can of course get it from the Tech Council of Australia website. The link is in the story on Startup Daily. So Check it out. I'd be interested to hear what other people think about this. Now, the one other thing I want to mention, because it's going to happen next Tuesday, is Koala is going to hit the ASX. So everyone can hopefully get a good night's sleep on a Koala bed, not spill any red wine, if you remember that old ad from years ago.

I do.

And they've just— the company is going to be worth around about $360, $305 million market capitalisation off the back of this. They're raising $20 million in external capital. The prospectus is $68 million all up. $48 million is secondary share sales. So a few people changing hands. Co-founder Mitch Taylor is selling $8.3 million worth of shares. He'll still have 16% of the business, so about $54 million worth. as a result. Danny Milham, of course, who disappeared for a little while to go and do Milk Run, has been back now for a couple of years as CEO on a $630,000 salary. Not a bad job. He has got a 20% stake escrowed for 2 years worth about $63 mil. Perennial Partners has got 22% or so, Alhambra Capital, But the one, of course, that I was intrigued by and I'm so looking forward to, one of the things that happens when a company lists is they put out a list of the top 20 shareholders. I want to know where Steve Smith sits in this. The Australian cricketer, champion batsman, former Australian Test captain. Back when Koala kicked off in Byron Bay a decade ago, Smithy put $100,000 in as a seed round for a 10% stake in the company. the business. I know around about 2021, it was valued at more than $12 million. Now, of course, there've been subsequent raises, which dilutes the value of the stakeholding, but I reckon he's probably going to end up pocketing more money from his $1,000 investment a decade ago than his entire Test cricket career will deliver him. Well, as talented as he is on that front.

No, I think it's great. We're super excited. Vichy's alumni, we love Koala Mattresses, of course. Such an incredible story and such a great growth. I think they went from 0 to $13 million in 12 months.

It is extraordinary.

They've just like— it was Danny's 8th startup, so first one that worked. But it was just— yeah, it's really, really great. We're stoked about it.

And they had fun with their marketing, didn't they? Yeah, they really— and the reference I was making before, because I still remember it's got about 5 million views. on YouTube, but they did an ad where they put a glass of red wine on the bed and then a bloke jumps onto the bed, uh, and bounces up and down. The red wine doesn't move, and then he picks up the glass and drinks it, which was like the one of the best product demonstrations ever.

The Koala marketing was just insane. I think, um, I'm pretty sure like Tim Doyle and everyone ex-Koala all running a lot of those things, which is great. Um, but if you want like a really good Laugh. Like, Google the koala billboards. Yeah, just so good. They just, they just did marketing like no one else. Really, really awesome.

And I know Bronwyn Cloon at Capital Brief did a story the other week. There's a lot of, of course, talk about the PayPal Mafia and everyone in the US who came out of that. There is a koala mafia. There's a whole bunch of really great entrepreneurs who've been through that business over the past decade, who, like Tim Doyle, you know, have built Eucalyptus to an extraordinary business as well.

Charlie as well, I guess.

Yeah.

So there is a Koala Mafia.

There is.

A Koala Colony.

And isn't it so well named for Australia?

Anyway, well done to the team at Koala. I hope the listing goes well on Tuesday for Danny and everyone. And hopefully there are a few ESOPs in there that might be buying a house or paying school fees off the back of the float.

Well, I hope so. They've done their work to earn it.

Well, speaking of companies that have been built brilliantly over a period of time, should we get Jeremy Cabral in and talk about his Finder days and what he's up to now?

We absolutely should.

All right, don't go away. We'll be right back.

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Thanks for having me, guys.

Happy birthday, 20 years, which is pretty epic.

Yeah, it's a long journey, man. Um, obviously a lot's happened over that period of time. We're having a bit of a celebration this Friday with the crew and ex-crew actually. So, um, great to see some, some faces I haven't seen for a while.

War stories.

Yeah, there's plenty of those.

Before we get into them, do you want to give a little bit of an overview of who you are and a little bit about your background as well?

Yeah, as you mentioned, co-founder of Finder. I was COO, so, um, but an unusual one. It was very growth-focused. I ran, um, the growth operations, product, tech, design, um, international expansion was part of my remit, and all sorts of things over the years. But, um, yeah, for me, I really, um, I felt it was important to bring together those functions to be able to have, I guess, the least amount of friction in terms of getting growth operations live. And so that was, I think, really successful for us. And yeah, I've since stepped out of my operational role at Finder. I'm still a special advisor to the board, but now I'm a growth advisor to startups and scale-ups.

So let's do a little bit of the origin story just to remind people. You, Frank, and of course, the most colourful member of the team, the Mick Jagger of the entire Finder cohort, Fred. How did it all come about?

Yeah, so as you mentioned, 20 years. So in 2006, there was an entity set up to basically house a whole series of ventures. It was like a, I guess, a venture studio in some capacity. And there was, I think, 27 experiments running. one of which was Credit Card Finder. There are all sorts of random ones as well. And I joined as a co-founder effectively to help unpenalize Credit Card Finder. It had been experiencing some issues and Fred and I had come to know each other over a tweet. But originally I was reading his stuff in the back of—

Yeah.

I was originally reading his stuff in the back of Marketing Magazine. And connect with him on Twitter. And then he put out this tweet saying, should I buy the iPhone or the Nokia N95? And I was like, mate, hands down, the iPhone's a game changer. And yeah, I just bought it a few days prior. And yeah, honestly—

Oh my God, this is like the beginning of Twitter though, and the beginning of the iPhone.

Yeah, it was actually. I remember in 2008 I was going to these tweet-ups actually where it's like totally random, like in-person meetups for anyone that was a Twitter user. But yeah, so around that period and we caught up at this conference and he was talking about The fact that he had his existing business and he wanted me to help out initially with that for the first few minutes at least. And then very quickly switched gears saying, you know what, forget that. I've got this new thing, this venture studio, and I'd love to have you come on board and help us bring more traffic to Australian websites is kind of a nice way of saying it. But he specifically said, I want to take the traffic back from the Yanks. And we built a pretty big business. I think over the course of a year, it's probably 35 million website visits. So it's a pretty highly used website. And we expanded out to over 23 countries at one point. So it's been a fun ride.

It's been an extraordinary adventure building a global business. Looking back, is there a moment where you thought, Jesus, we're really nailing this?

Yeah, I remember I was I sat on a bench in Bondi and it was pretty early. So it was probably a couple months into Fred and I working together and Frank. And I was sat there and looking at the website being used and people comparing and switching products. And I was like, wait, we're sat here on a bench in Bondi. This is a pretty killer business. And I was like, this is the type of business I want to be in. And that was the first moment I distinctly remember. And then there was just a few others over time where Pardon me, I've got a bit of a cough throat. A few others over time where I guess you just have these kind of moments where it's like, imagine getting to 100,000 visits in a month. It was like, that seems absurd. At the time, we're probably getting 15,000, 20,000 visits. But then a few months later, you hit that number and then eventually a million visits and just have these milestones which seemed crazy to kind of set. But each time you hit them, that was really like, we just got— this is— when is this going to stop, really? It just, it had so much momentum.

Wow. And what was those like? What were those early days really like in terms of growth for you guys? Like, what were you doing that was unusual that was getting you there?

Yeah, so, um, there were a few really simple variables that we invented into. So what I, what I thought about a lot was like, I can— I just visually can like— I can go back to where I was. I was sat, um, Actually, I sat next to the Flying Solo team, which I just saw the sign out at the front. And in that coworking space, it was called Bureau, level 3, 50 York Street. And I was like, there's competitors out there with 30, 40 staff. How am I going to compete with them if this ultimately, at the time, was mostly myself and one other person building this thing whilst Fred and Frank were in the earnout of the companies they'd sold. And I was like, okay, so we need to find a way to compete on time because they have far more, just way more resources than us. And we also need to invent into some other variables as well. So on the time front, what I did was I hired a virtual assistant. I'd read 4-Hour Workweek and I was like, this is a really great way to kind of unitize work and make it easy for others to kind of help me get this done. And we hired our first virtual assistant and we ended up having a team of nearly 200 So when you say a virtual assistant, you mean an actual one rather than an agentic one? Yeah, an actual human.

We're back in the analogue era back then.

An actual human. And that meant that I could kind of delegate work that helped me scale and it was a much lower cost of having that person support us as well. They're offshore. The second piece was about writing content. So I was manually writing content. I was like, this is going to take me years to catch up to one of the competitors. So we need to find a way to find a freelance writer that can write this content and help us scale that. Hired this writer in Queensland and effectively converted her from being a writer to an editor running an agency. And so that got pretty wild. She was helping us produce over 180 articles a day, humanly written, which is pretty absurd. I literally was publishing so much content that I got RSI just from the same pattern of copying and pasting and editing. So I had to pay somebody else to do the copy pasting for me. That was pretty crazy. And then the third part I think was about how do you get mentioned online? And for us in SEO, that was kind of the original channel that we really mastered. You needed to get these high-quality links. And so we spent a lot of time thinking about how can we get Finder in the news? And I think those 3 things combined ultimately were the kind of key ingredients that got us to success.

When you're bootstrapping a business, you have to make a lot of hard decisions. What's your approach to prioritising and making sure that you're always just choosing the highest leverage at all times?

Yeah, I think for me, the natural thing for most people is to strive for perfect. And I think that's a real challenge. Whereas I look at an opportunity and go, okay, what's the critical path to being able to commercialize something? And what are the only required steps in order to get this thing live? And so spending the time to descope what's really not necessary and knowing here are the shortcuts and things that I can do safely and come back for. I think is the key skill that you really need to develop and be comfortable with. It really is something that's uncomfortable. So yeah, as I say, being comfortable with that is key. And then I think ultimately when you invest a dollar, you need to make 2 or more, right? So really looking at the opportunities and going, especially in the early days, we're cash flow funded, we need to focus on the things that are going to make money now because making money now allows us to hire more crew and invest back into the business. So That was really important for us. So we use a lot of data to drive our decisions. And ultimately that meant in the beginning, say if you look at content, we did a whole bunch of keyword research identifying what are people searching online versus us just deciding we feel like writing about this thing today. So yeah, being really data driven I think was important. And I think ultimately that combination of things combined with a culture of go live, really pushing hard. And outpacing your competitors is what it takes.

I'm intrigued. And I have to say, I went through a period where I was working at Business Insider, and a lot of my colleagues who were part of the Allure Media Group kept disappearing over to Finder. This extraordinary— no, it was great. And I know they had a great time. I'm intrigued about that strategy around storytelling because It kind of— I had a sense at the time that there were 2 businesses going on, and of course one was feeding into the other. How did you think about that? Because in some ways you guys pioneered the idea of content and almost like the blog aspect of what so many businesses have now with what you were doing. People came for the stories you were telling, the information you were providing. And then of course there was the business monetization side off to the side. Now if you look at something like Atlassian, there's the work-life blog, but most companies have a storytelling aspect of who they are now.

Yeah, it's interesting because that's probably the invention I left off where what we did was we published a lot of content at scale, but the unique thing was we found a way to have virtually every guide able to be monetized. As you mentioned, a lot of companies would have their kind of was their checkout to the side and have a blog section as purely informational. But instead we were like, customers right there reading, someone that needs to do a task, if we can have it so the comparison table is embedded in that page, I think that was something that's quite remarkable. And we're still based on WordPress, which is kind of wild, but it's built in such a way that it's highly customizable and we really can have high conversion across our content. You mentioned the Allure Media kind of time. I think for me, I was a huge reader of Gizmodo, Lifehacker, all the publications.

Kotaku.

Yeah, Kotaku and all the guys there were fantastic. And for me, I remember in 2009 reading a lot of Angus Kidman's content and originally Gina Trapani's over in the US. She was the original editor of Lifehacker and going, you know what, if I could have content like that on Finder, that would be remarkable. And I developed a relationship with Angus over the course of a few years and started contributing a little bit to Lifehacker on personal finance content. But ultimately in the end, I was like, hey, if you can come over, that'd be fantastic. And the goal there for me was hiring the country's best editors to really upgrade the content. We were scaling a lot of content, like I said before prior, but really raising the bar there was the important thing and building Finder into a destination that could be really trusted and I guess from an industry perspective, a lot of people in tech that we mentioned there, we really wanted to kind of expand beyond the personal finance space and enter telco and other areas as well. So it was a really critical part of the strategy.

You were speaking about sitting on the beach at Bondi and having that moment when you said, this is really what I want to be doing. Do you feel like you were always wired towards doing something like Finder or is that something you sort of shaped along the way?

Yeah, it's so interesting because I was hassling my mum at a very young age to try and get an ABN and launch a business, like anything I could do. Like, you know, I was like, okay, I'm gonna fix lawnmowers. I'm gonna, you know, make bath bombs or like literally anything I was like, you know, could think of. I was keen to do it. I actually built and sold computers to my teachers and my friends. So that was kind of my first real business. But, you know, it was interesting. In 2007, I was studying and learning about e-marketing and hanging out on this forum called Threadwatch. So a lot of internet marketers, you know, back then used to contribute their thoughts on topics. And I felt like I had really strong academic knowledge of things like SEO and other channels in internet marketing, but I hadn't really tested myself at the top tier. And so for me, the opportunity in Finder was really about that. It's like this is where there's huge teams behind trying to get companies to rank number 1 in Google. And I felt that I academically knew what was possible and I had the creativity and lateral thinking to pull it off. And I think Fred saw that, and ultimately that's how we kind of came to work together.

Okay. September last year, you decided it was time to step down. I want you to take me through that process. I mean, it's a long time. You're 16 years of leadership for you. That's full on. And I was thinking about this ahead of meeting with you because I remember in my company, it got to about 10 years and I still loved it and I was still excited, but I think in some ways I started to get bored with myself and realized I needed to make some changes. What were you thinking at the time? Because it is an enormous amount of time to devote to an idea, even if it's your own business and central. If you are, let's say, a restless soul, it's Tough to stay in the same paddock.

Yeah. So I'd say things really for me started, I started getting prompted to think about things when we started hiring out our executive team that would kind of run most of the operations. And the intention we raised at the end of 2021 was to really expand internationally and kind of go for the moonshot. And then a few things played out with the markets and we kind of started unravelling that strategy. And so I think that was kind of the first time I really thought about, well, where do I add the most value inside a company? And I thought about that. The 3 of us have a coach who we kind of speak to on a weekly basis individually and together as well on a Friday.

Oh, wow.

And I think at different points in time I'd have the discussion of, I'm not sure kind of what the best play is for myself personally. And when I look back, I think about, like I mentioned, building computers or whatever it is. I was always early to a technology curve. I was the first in my grade to have the internet, the first to build a computer, the first to all these things, websites.

The iPhone.

Yeah, literally. Yeah, the first iPhones and so on. And I think when AI hit, like I had GPT-2 preview access, which was prior to ChatGPT launching, and I couldn't do anything with it because I just didn't have the time and space. I remember when ChatGPT launched that summer, I was like, man, that really frustrates me that I couldn't act on this quickly enough. And at the time, we were going through some kind of internal changes, and I was just trying to find my way through to drive through this priority. And I couldn't really create the space in the way that I'd done in the kind of, I guess, 15 years or so prior. And so, yeah, for me, that kind of was in my mind. And just seeing AI exponentially become more important, I felt that not only for myself personally, but also for the company. Being able to step out of my operational role would really allow me to kind of see what's out there and bring back that information to the business and what I'm seeing and what's working and so on. Just on Sunday night, I was busy coding a prototype for something for the team to say, here's what we could do around this particular opportunity. And yeah, so I'm still very much thinking about how can AI benefit Finder? And I think there's some really exciting things that are taking traction at Finder right now. But also, I'm driven by 3 things, connection, growth, and helping people. They're my 3 values. And so having the opportunity now to be a growth advisor, I've spoken to literally hundreds of companies. I feel very fortunate. I'm very fulfilled by that as well. So yeah, I think it was just like a need to selfishly go after that next technology curve with AI and have the space and time to focus on it.

The other part about it too is going back to first principles of you. Because as a business scales and you end up in those leadership roles that become increasingly complex, the challenge is that the things that you started to do that you love doing the most disappear for a range of other tasks. So is that a fair assessment? It was like you wanted to go back to being Jeremy, the original Jeremy 20 years ago building Finder.

Yeah, I think there's something really special about that zero-to-one phase of finding those pieces, those ingredients of when you finally get them to work together, you crack the formula for growth. And I kind of go through so many of those conversations each day now across so many different sectors that it's become really rewarding. And I'd say probably a year out from the actual final public announcement around my role, Um, I'd spent some time really looking inward and, and, you know, I actually randomly went to this punk concert and like, you know, reminded of kind of my early days and so on. And, um, I just got so much energy from that and, you know, just started to, you know, network a little bit more and realised that actually there's a huge opportunity out there that I really need to go and explore. And, and that was, you know, ultimately what, you know, drove everything. So yeah.

Throughout your tenure at finder.com, you've had a lot of personal growth and, um, constantly getting thrown into new roles and new opportunities. What kind of learnings did you have from that experience that you're now taking forward post-Finder?

Yeah, so I would always tell myself I need to be a better version of myself every 2 to 3 months and deeply commit on a fast learning curve on whatever it is the company needed to be able to continue to succeed. And that would look like reading books, going to conferences around the world, meeting authors, speakers, whatever, like just coaches, consultants. Now I think it's more like you need to be a better version of yourself every 2 to 3 weeks, honestly. Like, this whole AI thing is insane. But yeah, I would say that the personal development journey is one by which you're solving for ultimately growing the business. Because I think that the thing that makes people happy is progress. But also, in order to solve every problem in a company, growth is the answer. That's my genuine view. It's like, if people want more opportunity, they want to change roles. If they want to do something different. If you're growing, it's the answer to all these things. So yeah, I really was, I guess, trying to find ways where I could remove any obstacle that would be in the way of achieving growth for the business.

Tell me how the 3 of you figured out how you were going to fit together as co-founders. Fred and Frank had been working together for a couple of years and you came in in 2008. And I made the joke about Fred being Mick Jagger. You know, are you the sort of the Charlie Watts, Bill Wyman rhythm section that keeps it all on time and humming along? And then Frank's in there probably doing a little bit of the flashy sort of more Keith Richards stuff as CEO. How did it work? How did you decide?

Yeah. So I'd say in the very early days, speed was the goal. So Fred and I would almost operate in parallel. And then it kind of came to a moment where we made a decision around roles and responsibilities where ultimately I would kind of take over most of the growth operations. Frank would still kind of run the core of sales and marketing and so on. And Fred was always given space to effectively innovate, like find the next thing. And I think that was really the best combination. I was like a chameleon in the sense that I could work on the next thing and really spend some time incubating that next thing and also work on the core foundational stuff and be the bridge between Fred and Frank. So I guess it really worked in that I was able to take a riskier play and work on something that Fred was doing at any point in time and also work on something deeply methodical and important for the company as well. So yeah, that was, I guess, the split of and the energy of how we work together.

Now I'm going to jump ahead because you just referenced it. earlier. What are you up to now? Just share with our listeners. Aside from the fact that you are still sitting around on a Sunday night coding for Finder, you've got some other roles.

Yeah. So I kind of accidentally ended up becoming an advisor to businesses. And what happened was I put out a LinkedIn post, over 170 companies reached out and—

Ouch.

Yeah. I was like, this is insane. Over the course of a few days. And so I was like, I need to— firstly, it was overwhelming. I was like, so how do I deal with this? And then it was a big data exercise researching these businesses, who can I help and so on. And I started a bit of a growth hacking for startups group, which I ran for 6 weeks and that was a heap of fun. I'd been mentoring Startmate, kind of the last cohort of Startmate as well. And then through that, there was a few opportunities to work on some AI application builds. So I did a bit of that. And now I guess I would say I'm kind of probably 2 or 3 things is what I'm doing. Ultimately, there's coaching one-on-one with a founder and helping them almost as a fractional co-founder, whether it be on growth or technology builds. There's also this group coaching for startups that I'm doing. And I think the second piece is almost, I wouldn't say I'm an anti-agency, but I've got a fractional team of people that can come in and help you on any particular function in your company. whether it be growth channels or technology builds and so on. And the third is really if I embed myself into your business and go deep on solving a particular problem on your behalf. So yeah, the advisory is quite broad, but I'm still spending a lot of time networking and my P1 at the moment is honestly just creating content. I want to share as much as I can about what I've learnt. And so yeah, I really love opportunities like this.

So in that context, Working with all of these people, there's often that founder experience of, I'm the only one, this is, I have to figure this out from scratch. And then when you start to collaborate, when you start to talk to others, you find the commonality, you see that there are patterns. What are the patterns that you're seeing as you talk to others at this point in time? Because I reckon they're quite different to the ones from 5 years ago.

Yeah, I mean, I would say there's still a lot of things that are universally true and have been probably 10 years ago and 20 years ago. I would say that a lot of people overthink things and wait too long to launch or really are uncomfortable with not being perfect with their execution. And that's just been something I've been around forever. I'm always the guy that's saying, go live now, really incrementally improve. And I think that's the way to do it. I think that right now is interesting as well, where there's definitely 2 camps. There's people that talk about AI and there's people that use it. And there's people that think that they're using AI but really are not deep enough yet. ChatGPT is genuinely not enough. You have to really go deep and start building into your workflow every day. It's like you're working from AI outwards. And so I'm helping people uncover how they can, I guess, use AI inside their companies. And yeah, I think that there's still, we bootstrapped to Finder. And so for me, I'm always trying to encourage people to do something that's going to generate revenue today versus playing this very long game because I like the idea of effectively controlling your own destiny. And yeah, so that's a lot of my conversations end up in this sort of territory, really supporting people and helping founders get out of their own head. Yeah.

Speaking of, I suppose, being in your own head, was there a particular fear that you felt like you were holding on to throughout your founder journey and it's just not spoken enough out loud?

It's a great question. I like that. Um, I think that there were always moments of fear. Like, you know, what came to my mind as you said that was like, you know, the first time you hire that, you know, fancy executive from like a big company in the US. They walk in, you're like, oh shit, like this is the real deal. Like I've got to make sure I'm like, you know, on my A-game. And then after a few weeks you realise actually, okay, cool, here's where they've got their value. Here's where I complement them, that you'd still have that same feeling every single time you hire that amazing executive. I think there was always moments as well of fear of not figuring something out, but then realising that actually you always do. And so yeah, I think that was where I really valued counsel from Fred and Frank. They were always so calm in those moments of like, we're all good, we'll solve that kind of thing. I was like, sweet. And so I'd go away and figure it out. But that relationship between the 3 of us, I think that kind of calm energy was really helpful. Yeah.

I want to go to a difficult moment for you guys, and it's when ASIC came knocking on the door back in 2023. Finder Earn and the wallet and all of that. It's, it's a pretty scary moment when, you know, the corporate cop is sort of going, oi, take us through that experience because I've watched startups deal with this. And I'm just going to say from my conversations, I know that the regulators can be pretty intransigent at the time. You don't have to say that. I would say that. And so it's pretty black and white in their minds at that point. point in time. And I suppose a little bit like being pulled over for speeding, they don't want to hear any excuses. It doesn't matter if someone's pregnant in the backseat, you're still speeding. What was that experience like? Because it then became a couple of years of legal battle until eventually you were cleared. Finder was given the tick of approval.

Yeah. So at Finder, we obviously take compliance very seriously from the very beginning and all the way through to now. And so from our side, we always engaged the best lawyers we could, and in-house legal counsel is absolutely phenomenal. And I think in this moment, we had actually been engaging with the government for quite some time prior, helping with the Senate inquiry into crypto and speaking to the innovation arm of ASIC. And we felt that with all of the advice we had, we were doing something that was within the law. we spoke to a few different divisions of ASIC at the time. The first was like, we think it's this thing. And we're like, we don't because our advice says otherwise. And so that was okay. And then eventually I think the government had no choice but to take some action. They ultimately had a situation with these huge situations like FTX and Luna and all this sort of stuff playing out. And in Australia, I think to send a message that, hey, we're monitoring the space and we're ensuring that consumers don't experience any harm, they had to choose a brand that I think was very well known and operating in the category. And so for Finder, obviously that kind of put us in that position. But thankfully, as I said, we were compliant the way we were operating and we had great advice and we were able to ultimately get to an outcome where the court agreed with us. But yeah, it's a tough thing to go through for any company. It's obviously very stressful and can be quite distracting at times. So yeah, but you just got to just back yourself sometimes. And I think we did have the option of kind of, I guess, conceding. But I think just given how important it was reputationally for us, we wanted to make sure that we went through the entire process end to end. And yeah, I think on the other side, it's obviously, it's great to know that we were doing the right thing.

Because that's the expensive part. And I think businesses often try to do the maths around what's going to be cheaper. Do we settle and pay whatever and go away, or do we put all that money into lawyers and fighting? And that's a pretty tough decision. Was it that sense, going back to your values, of a moral clarity and the fact that you all the way through this process tried to do the right thing, tried to engage in the conversation to make sure that you were on the right side of the road.

Yeah, I think so. It was definitely about that. And we have always been innovative, especially Fred, and he's absolutely brilliant. And so I knew, and he deep down knew, that he had really figured out something that I think was ultimately going to be a great product for consumers. And so, yeah, to kind of defend that innovation that we had built was important. We really think that's an important thing for the country to keep pushing and making sure that we are creating excellent products and services here in Australia. So yeah, I think it was partly about defending that as well.

And just one quick follow-up, given— and I go back to Uber having a crash, crash through policy, and so much of technology is about operating on the edge with a legislative framework that needs to catch up with what's happening. Did you have a sense at the time that maybe there's a different treatment to local operations to the way that international companies come in and do whatever the heck they want in this jurisdiction?

Yeah, it's always challenging, right? Because where you're based kind of determines a bit of where ultimately something plays out. But yeah, it's hard. I don't think there was an easy answer in that scenario. I think the government had to do something.

Did they need an announceable? Was that it really?

Well, I think that they wanted clarity themselves as well.

Yeah, I thought that was part of it too, because Andrew Bragg was pretty busy at the time. Pushing really hard on the crypto to try and get a framework in place. It seems like there was a lot of balls moving all at once. And then of course there was a little bit of sideswiping happening overseas. Yeah.

And so that's it. I think that ultimately there was a bit of clarity in that process for the government. And I think that some of these things have to be tested all the time just to know exactly where the line is. So yeah, but it's behind us now and I think we've We've moved on and it's been good for Finder.

Going back, I guess, to the topic of personal growth and mentioned try to be a better person every 2 to 3 weeks. How do you hold the weight of the personal growth side when you've already got so much on the business side as well?

Yeah, I think the habit of seeing a coach regularly, I think, is something that I really recommend. I think for me it's almost like an exhaust. It's just a way to kind of constantly you know, have the time and space where you're talking about things that are on your mind. And, um, without that, I think things can build up. So, you know, brilliant coach Craig Hall, who I've probably seen for probably 7 or 8 years now. And, um, I think that the important thing is, like, you know, often people think about if I said a coach, it's like a business coach, and he's not that. So for me, it's my coach is someone that's going to challenge me physically, spiritually, emotionally, and mentally. And I think that on all those dimensions, there's a need for growth. And so depending on each point of time, you might need to be challenged in a different way. And it's interesting with my kind of development with Craig, he was like, I think that you need to focus on physical transformation right now in order to achieve what you want mentally and emotionally. And so last year I went through this marathon preparation, lost 20 kilos in 4 months and ran this marathon.

Oh my God, I need Craig Stubblett right now.

Yeah, he's taking on new clients.

Yeah, yeah.

I won't do marathons, but he's selective.

But yeah, he's a great coach. Um, he's a bit stealth as well. But, um, yeah, I think for me it's like I'd actually been challenged for so long, for years prior, on this kind of physical issue of like, you know, wanting to lose weight and not being able to. And then I think the moment I kind of unlocked that, I was able to kind of solve for so much more. And, um, so yeah, they're all really interconnected. And, you know, I think another important thing is James Clear, he talks about this, is is having goals in different areas of your life so that each week it's like you might have, I'm going to do weightlifting 3 days a week. I'm going to achieve this goal from a business context or family or relationship goal. And you may not achieve all those goals in a week, but if you have those habits of like, I went to the gym that day, at least you will always tick the box from a physical transformation standpoint or physical good habits, healthy habits sort of thing. So yeah, allowing some areas to drop and whilst you have some sort of key pillars and foundations in your life is, I think, really important as well.

So going back to the P1, do you have a P1 in each of the categories or do they all sit on a top 10?

Yeah, so I spent a bit of time in the Hunter in January and I basically got this whiteboard out with my mates and I was like, all right, we're going to have one goal in each category of our life. We've got this weekly meeting, we come together and keep each other accountable to it. And yeah, I literally have just literally a number that's like whether it be a weight goal and other goals as well, financial goals, et cetera. And so it's super clear that that's what we're aiming for. And I think everybody's guilty of setting too many goals and there's heaps of sub-goals and all this stuff that I've set. But all that matters is that December 31st, that's the goal that we kind of set and target. that we achieve these things. And I think it's not only about achieving the goals, it's about setting epic celebrations. So I said to my wife, we're going to Japan for New Year's Eve. And she was like, that's amazing. And she loves that sort of travel and all that sort of thing. So I think having that kind of delayed gratification of like, if we do these things, we'll get to that outcome is also important as well. But yeah, I'd say each one is very different, but they all work together to achieve the same outcome, which I think is just about being better every year.

So And what about the manifesting aspect? You've just said you went with a bunch of mates up to the Hunter and you did the whiteboard. That kind of is a very clear statement of intent. How important is that?

Honestly, I think it's crazy. Some of the goals I set in January, it was like 28th of Jan, I was turning 40 a few days later and I've achieved some of them by March. And I'm just like, that's kind of wild. So we probably need to come together and recalibrate. And I think it's just about, yeah, like the inputs that you have to focus on each day to get to the outputs you want. I'm very obsessed with that concept. Um, an example that, you know, Amazon's famously known for is like they had these, um, an input metric called, um, number of product detail pages live. So it's like, you know, number of pages live on Amazon products. What that led to was a whole bunch of products that weren't in stock, you know, um, those products that had no demand and like it was just like a wasteful exercise. By the end of it, they had refined the input metric to become number of product detail pages live that are in stock and available within 2 days for delivery. And that became ultimately a part of the Prime offering. But it was this key driver, which meant that they weren't filling warehouses with stock of items that weren't being sold. There was a clear customer expectation of getting something delivered for free fast, and it just drove this massive growth inside their business. So yeah, for me, I think these inputs to get to the outputs you want is a critical thing to focus on.

And refining them along the way.

Very much so.

Would you say there's a cost to success?

Absolutely. I think you play a big game. You've got critics all the time. I remember inside Finder, there was moments in time where I was absolutely convinced that I was needing to do something to grow the company and there'd be people seeing that as a distraction. An epic example of that was I just got married, went to New York in February 2017. I saw crypto was starting to take off. Bitcoin was, I think, $900 USD. And I was like, hey, to my US team, can you build out this crypto comparison? And a few months later, I saw that it was going a bit slow. And so I was like, hey, do you mind if I take this back on as a personal project? I think this is really taking off. And Bitcoin price was probably a few thousand dollars by that point. And so I started by building out this team. There was 2 people working on it, and every single day they'd publish more content, more guides, more comparisons. And by Christmas that year, I think it was Boxing Day actually, Ripple— pretty much everybody was talking about crypto that summer. It was like Bitcoin or Ripple. And I had gone to an event in Sydney a couple of weeks prior where I'd met some people that were enthusiasts about crypto but probably not writers. I remember calling them on Boxing Day going, hey guys, I know this is kind of insane, but can you write some content for me? And they're like, sure. And so we paid them to write this content. And every single story we were publishing was getting about 250,000 visits. And that's just absurd when you've got articles on Finder that maybe might get a few thousand visits a month. So we captured that moment because we invested throughout that entire period of time. And then on the other side of that, we became one of the top 10 affiliates of Binance globally in terms of referrers of new customers and the top crypto comparison business in Australia. It's a pretty significant thing that we built, but it took kind of just knowing and backing yourself that at times you're going to do things that others don't agree with. But I think that if you were to ask any Finder crew member right now, they'd probably be pretty thankful for that moment that I kind of kept persisting through that. And yeah, so it's tough. Success does mean you're going to have critics. And yeah, I just think that you're— and also you're not going to get it right all the time, and that's just part of the game. So yeah.

Not only that, but I thought Fred was the crypto guy and it turns out you were secretly in the background driving it.

Well, yeah, Fred, he is an absolute expert. I kind of went deep for a period in time and built out what we needed to for the company, which is the core comparison. But then after, I think a couple of years, I was like, I've got to move on to the next thing because you just can't keep up. It's like AI right now, right? It's like literally I was walking here coding on my laptop and when it came in, I was like, sorry, mate, I'm still going here. Anytime I close my laptop, I'm thinking with anxiety, you guys have got your laptops, should have had mine here at this tapping away. So yeah, I think crypto was about that. I learned a lot, but it's just amazing how much you can lose some knowledge as well, just moving on to the next thing, not being deep in the space. So it's certainly changed a lot since back then.

I would've been exhausted keeping up with all the shitcoins too.

Yeah, all the phases of crypto. It was very interesting. Yeah.

How do you actually, when you're going through these periods of hype, I guess, of any type of thing.

How—

what do you do to make sure that you're kind of seeing through all of that and you landed on the real deal?

So inside Finder, there's this thing called Finder First, and it's about finding the signal for what's yet to come, like finding signal for like what's about to happen. I remember another example was in, um, uh, 2020. I had just come back from New York in February, like just pre kind of shut, uh, lockdowns for COVID. But in the December prior, we had these pages on our website which were around face masks, which were about smoke inhalation because we had the bushfires that summer and it was pretty crazy. And then I started seeing this huge uptick in people going to these pages and I was like, what's going on here? There's a huge interest in these face masks. I made the connection that people were concerned with the germs and spread the virus and all this sort of thing. So we just switched the page to be not about smoke inhalation and just about face masks in general, um, and then started, you know, seeing very quickly that people were purchasing these through the retailers that were listed in our Finder shopping section. And that then for me was like, wow, this is a thing. The world's really going to go berserk at this whole thing. And I started playing it forwards a little bit of like, what's going to happen? It's like, okay, so if retailers are out of stock how are people going to find things? And so we started building this page where to buy literally all the essentials. Because if you went to the web and you went to Woolies or anywhere really, you couldn't buy stock in the traditional location. So Finder had to do what it does best, is aggregate all these independent options that are spread all over the internet into these clear lists. And we did that and it became a huge success for Finder, building out this retail essentials thing. But the thing was traditional marketing tools like Semrush, Ahrefs, and others, they have lagging indicators. So they tell you, here's the amount of searches for this thing last month. But in this moment, it's like you need to know what are people buying today. And so I was like, okay, how can we find that data? I use this tool called Jungle Scout, which I looked at the sales of products in Amazon Italy. Because remember, I don't know if you guys remember that in Italy they had the first lockdowns and you could see the things of what pattern, the patterns of what consumers were doing over there. So they're buying gardening products and all this sort of thing. So anyway, ran Jungle Scout, got all this data and then started building out these pages because I was looking at the number of sales that were happening over a 24-hour period, which has given me a bit of an advantage over these competitors, like getting the information on what people are buying ahead of any traditional marketing tool telling you a little bit, I guess sharing that data after it's already happened. So Yeah, I think just going back to the main point, it's finding the signal before everybody else and then creating the space and putting people on it is the other thing as well. So yeah.

Did you ring up Mike Schneider at that point and say, hey mate, you better stock up at Bunnings because you're going to need it?

Yeah, honestly, it got wild because my kids were born in June 2020 and I was like, I might not be able to see them. I might not be able to go into the theatre. So what I did was actually I bought a whole bunch of products that were on the list of approved products to if you were going into a hospital effectively, to be able to ensure that I could go in there. Because by having my own PPE, the personal protection equipment or something like that, and even ultrasounds and all this sort of stuff in the lead-up, I'd call them up and like, oh, sorry, you can't come in because we don't have enough masks. I was like, well, I've got some and I'm happy to donate some to you guys so others can use as well. So yeah, just things like that. It's kind of wild. But yeah, it was Really interesting time.

And, um, and I also think about it from the point of view of where we are with AI now. What you were doing was the human version of AI scraping the sum total of human knowledge and presenting it to people in an easily accessible way. Yeah, you kind of predated what AI has now become.

Yeah, I think, um, it's interesting because I spent a lot of time doing some context engineering with my AI that I use each day. And a lot of it is about knowing that some of these things are existing tools that you could do it manually, but connecting it through an API or an MCP to be able to make it available to your AI to use every day. So I think if I'd do the same thing again, I'd probably see if Jungle Scout had an MCP connected to Claude Code and off we go. So instead of that manual process, it's the same thing, but at much faster, you know, kind of execution.

If you could go back to day 1 of finder.com for your journey, what would you do differently?

Honestly, like day 1, um, the thing that was an interesting decision was like we, we didn't really, um, build out across multiple platforms. So we had like, you know, text-based content like mostly on the website. And this kind of predates all social media really taking off and so on. It was like Facebook fan pages or something like that back then. We owned a few of those. There's some stories for another day. But yeah, I guess for me, really not so much a day one thing, but a few years in, I think I would've focused on more channels and building that capability to be across video and social and We were really, really great at understanding how an algorithm works and building a structure and hiring a team against that. So I think that's something I'd definitely focus on. I think that also data is really, really critical. So with Finder, I think we solved distribution before we solved product, literally having this enormous amount of traffic to a website and then the product would catch up afterwards. So I think building a strategy on data collection, to better personalise the service would be something I'd definitely do. Yeah, because I think right now that data is just so critical to be able to build up amazing offerings to people. And I think that if we had the 20 years of collecting that, that would be, I think, something that would be very powerful and useful to the business.

The company was 15 years old and you've talked about bootstrapping. Suddenly you decided to raise $30 mil. valued the company, I think it was $650, $680 post capital. Take us through that period and the decision that we were going to take on our first external investor.

Yeah, so I think everyone at the time was chasing the goal of owning the customer's wallet. Literally everybody was launching their own cards and wallet products and wanted to have I guess the funds under their own management to be able to kind of better administer services like Revolutes and all these sort of things like the N26, all these neobanks and so on, right?

Elon was having the super app that he's still going to have one day apparently.

Yeah, all this stuff. And so naturally for Finder, it's like if we had the ability to bring together a customer's funds and accounts and so on into one location, we felt we could build the ultimate customer experience and really help people switch more easily, choose the right product when they're spending, and just take out all the friction and the need to compare at all. So yeah, that really is the vision. And I think ultimately at some point Finder will achieve that. But I think there was a moment in time where there was a window of opportunity to really raise funds and accelerate that. And so that was the goal of the fundraise at the time.

Being an operator— oh, sorry, what was I going to say? Oh yeah, being an operator means your people are at the center of pretty much everything you're doing. What was something that you tolerated too long that ended up having a bad impact on the business?

Well, that's so interesting. Um, she's tough, isn't she? Yeah, good questions. I think, um, there's a transition that a company makes when they go from a family to a team. And, um, when it's family, you're very forgiving and you kind of delay tough decisions on things, or you don't say anything at all, like, just to keep the peace. Whereas a team have expectations of each other on performance. And I think delaying decisions on some of those kind of important things, because like I mentioned, personal growth, I think I needed to go through some growth myself to understand that there's a certain way of operating as a leader to go beyond that. And so yeah, I'd say that takes time to kind of learn that, but also Once you've learned that, you need to act quickly. And so that means that you're going to probably upset some people that you really care for that have done some really good things for the company in making some decisions that maybe aren't going in their favour. But yeah, that's ultimately the reality of business. So yeah, that's my answer to that one.

Just finally, extraordinary 2 decades building Finder. Now you've got the freedom to rethink things. You've been doing some work on, on your own growth story. You've got a young family. What does the next 20 years look like in Jeremy's mind? And most importantly, what do you want for your kids and family?

Wow, it's so interesting. Um, I don't think I have clarity beyond the next 20 days because of the pace of, the pace of everything happening right now. But I do know—

School lunches, uh, where are my school shoes? Yeah.

Dad.

Yeah, yeah.

So, um, things are pretty fast-paced and like, you know, I'm trying to just stay ahead of the curve like all of us. Um, 20 years from now, I just want my kids to be able to choose what they want to do with their lives and have that kind of optionality and not be limited by, um, whatever the world looks like at that time, right? And so that's what I mean, it's like I genuinely couldn't even tell you what is going to be happening 20 years from now, but I want them to be fortunate enough that they've got some choice. I don't want things to be easy for them because I think that you need to go through the school of hard knocks to kind of figure things out. But I'm also, there's kind of a few versions of the future. So for me, why I'm still hustling and pushing hard right now is like, I want to make sure that I'm in control of my destiny and the kids are okay and the family's okay. Yeah, AI stuff is pretty wild and there's lots of permutations on what this world could play out to be. But I think for me, if you can always stay a little bit ahead of everybody else, everything else will be— you'll be fine. Everyone's going to be sorted. So that's my goal at this point.

Jeremy Cabral, thank you so much for joining us. Congratulations on building an extraordinary company. It's been wonderful to hear your story. And yeah, I'll be talking to you about Craig after this because it's He sounds like he's the GLP-1 of personal growth.

He honestly is epic. The thing with Craig is I've had him coach not only all the executive team at Finder, but my best friends, my wife and everyone. So I've got this accountability network around me that, and you start hearing his language in conversation. It's like, oh my gosh, it's the best. But yeah, highly recommend him.

Fantastic. Well, you've got a fantastic coach too, haven't you?

I do.

Or a couple.

I do. I've got a very good network of people around me, so I'm very happy. Jeremy being one of them.

It is so important. What's the plan for this weekend? I can't believe it's the end of March already. We are a third of the way through 2026.

Don't even mention it. Like quarter one is over.

Quarter, yes.

Over. Gone.

Well, that is it for this week. Have a great weekend too. We'll of course see you next Friday for Startup 360. Before we go, I do want to say that this is a SmartCo Media production. Produced and edited by the fantastic Matt Jackson. I haven't even checked in on the sharkies, so I'm not sure how they're going this time of the year. He's shaking his head in the corner, so we won't mention that further. We won't bring that up. Thanks also to Ella, to James, to Deal, of course, for their support of the show. You can catch us on Apple, on Spotify, on YouTube, and of course, sign up for startupdaily.net. It's free. It's got all the stories that we talk about on the show. You can go back through the old Finder back catalog of stories. That's been a great one over the years. You have a great time. Bye for now.

Bye.