From Redundancy to Rubber with Jeremy Cabral and Winnie Parkes

We are back for another red-hot episode of Unfinished Business, talking about the juicy stuff that really goes on behind the scenes of running a business. I'm Anita Sarkeer, founder of Hero Packaging, Stage, and author of Sell Anything Online. And today we have a superstar of the Australian business scene with us, someone who has built a household name business and helped millions of Australians compare everything from credit cards to crypto along the way. He is the co-founder of the global comparison platform Finder, and now a growth advisor startups and scale-ups. It is Jeremy Cabral. Welcome to the show. Thank you for being our special guest for the day.

Thank you for having me.

I want everyone to get to know you a little bit better, so I thought we could do some quickfire questions with you.

Let's go for it.

I'm going to start with this one, which is, what does a typical day look like for you?

Yeah, so start the day around 6 AM at the gym. Hopefully I don't wake my kids up on the way out of the house. This morning I did and they weren't happy. But yeah, let's do that. Come home, hang with the kids, have an extra coffee. And then head into the city every day. And, you know, for me, it's really about, you know, I'm seeking an opportunity to learn and meet somebody new that's going to help me, I guess, progress and be better. And, you know, it's very different to my days at Finder, whereas, you know, meetings back to back, you know, across all the functions and, you know, really trying to drive the business forward across its strategic direction. And nowadays it's really more about, you know, how can I stay across this whole AI thing and teach as many businesses about it as well?

And if you could kind of describe your entire journey into one word or like the entrepreneurial journey, and yours in particular, what would that word be?

Speed.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I think I've always just over-indexed on being fast and first to a moment, first to launch something, first to capitalise on opportunities. So yeah, for me, our culture at Finder was really defined as that. Go live is the culture that Finder has around, you know, we want to see something live, we don't want to talk about it, and we iterate and build in public. Yeah, for us, I think speed has always been something that's really served us.

I love that. And if I could also ask you this, because I am building a new business right now as well, what part of building a business still excites you to this day?

I think it's the fact that there's so many moving pieces right now. It's a lot to stay across as a founder. And, you know, for me, I love learning. I love, you know, at the moment, like, I'm up late learning, you know, OpenClaw and going nuts on this sort of thing. And yeah, the opportunity to automate and really accelerate, I think, is exciting right now.

Yeah, I feel you. I'm all into AI. I'm trying my absolute best to learn it as well. I want to know what the next chapter is for you, or what's your unfinished business?

Yeah, I think I'm driven by my values. So I love connection, growth, and helping people. So for me, obviously learned a lot bootstrapping Finder to over $100 million in revenue. And I think there's just things that you kind of can identify through pattern recognition, things that you kind of help take away some pain from startup founders or scale-ups looking to go to the next level. So the Unfinished Business for me is really about sharing my playbooks and also everything I've learned in the last few months. I think I'm meeting some really cool companies, people that are doing things differently, and I think competing on a global stage as well. So yeah, very excited to be fortunate enough, I guess, to be able to give back right now.

I love the throwaway comment of just bootstrapped a business to $100 million. That's my favourite part of what you just said. Okay, so we have a segment called Reality Check, and this is where small businesses call up and they tell us something that hasn't gone quite to plan, maybe something that they don't want to put on social media, and I thought we could discuss it and maybe help solve their problems.

Love that. I'm keen to hear the stories.

I run a business with my husband, and somewhere between menopause, life, kids, and the general chaos of running a business, I completely forgot to make a business overdraft payment. Not for a week, not for a month, but for 3 months.

I can't even remember why it wasn't taken out in a direct debit, but then we got a letter from the bank saying we had to pay the whole thing back in one month. That was a really awkward conversation with hubby. Yeah, I mean, we've all gone through this sort of stuff before. If you were advising her and her husband, what would you do in this situation?

First thing is you've got to meet with the bank and figure out—

Exactly.

Who do I need to speak to and who's their manager, basically.

Yeah.

In my view, like, There's often situations like this which are largely automated. You know, a bank's gonna send out a notice and, you know, on the other side of it, especially on the business banking side of things, there's generally a lot more wiggle room than, you know, the consumer side. So setting up a meeting, you know, speaking to a bank manager and finding a solution.

Yes.

Typically there's something available. Like they wanna work with you, they don't wanna lose your business and there's probably a path forward here.

I think so. And I think banks automatically think that there are some dodgy people out there and so their processes are built for that, dodgy style of business owner. But the thing is, if you're going to have a difficult conversation with them and just be really transparent, I think that's the best thing that you can do and say, I genuinely forgot. I am a good business owner. I just, I'm a small business owner and I forgot to do it. So can I have an extension?

Totally. And, you know, look, I was in the business of comparison for a very long time. I think having a parallel conversation with a competing bank to say, hey, here's what just played out. I'm not really happy with how they handled the situation. Is there anything you can do to support me here? And I'm sure they'll, you know, come at the situation trying to win your business. And, um, yeah, there's certainly a way forward.

And I think the awkward conversation with your husband that she needs to have, I think as well, it just kind of leads into having difficult conversations leading to an easy life. And I think I really believe that. So like the minute you find out or the minute this stuff happens, it's so easy to just panic and not tell anyone because you're so embarrassed that it's happened. But for me, I know that every time I've just said it out loud and been transparent about it, it's made it a lot easier because people are gonna help you to resolve that as well.

100%, yeah.

Okay, so I know that a lot of these things, it ends up teaching you some really valuable lessons in business. Like I've done so many things like this in the past, not just, you know, financially, but with anything, even with staff. I would love to know what is one surprising lesson perhaps you had at Finder?

Yeah, a financial one is in growing internationally. I remember going to my New York office and just seeing this stack of papers in the corner. And we didn't have a local finance person. And one of the people that worked in editorial was like, hey, there's all these letters addressed to you guys here in the corner. I was like, you know, all the state governments going like this tax, that tax, whatever. And I was like, so that's how it works over here. And like, you know, we— I just think, you know, you've got to get on the front foot. You've got to get a better understanding of how these governments work. The US is almost like each state is its own country.

It's different.

And so it's complicated. And so yeah, I think in internationally expanding your business, Get the right advice up front and make sure you can handle it. So like, we obviously were all fine, but like, I just think it was, um, just so funny to see like these papers piling up on the corner. It's like, oh, another one's arrived.

I think it's so funny now, but when you're doing it and you see all the bills, you're so triggered by it all.

Yeah, exactly.

So sometimes these oversights end up teaching you some really valuable lessons. I'd love to know a valuable lesson that you learned at Finder.

Resource your strategy. So like, have the right people in place to bring it to life.

Yeah.

And, um, You know, there's some things you can kind of take shortcuts on and other things that you don't want to take a shortcut on. So yeah, from my perspective, you know, set out the ambition, but, you know, progressively build correctly with the right capital in behind it.

Yes.

And the right people as well.

Yes, processes and people.

Yeah.

Gotta get into it. Okay, now we have our second reality check of the day. Let's have a listen.

So I run a small cafe in a coastal part of Queensland. There's a regular who comes in all the time and complains loudly about the price of the coffee, the price of the The price of the sourdough, the price of everything. Yeah, we had to raise prices because of higher costs, but we're fair. Last week I got so fed up I told him we're out of his favourite jam. Then I went out the back and ate the last serving for lunch. It was petty, but the most satisfying thing I've done all month. The customer isn't always right.

Do you agree? Is the customer always right or not always right?

I think the customer's always right.

Do you?

I think I do, yeah. I have a strong belief that you should look at that situation a long arc and timeline. And I know that it's emotionally triggering for you in that moment, but it very rarely serves you to be petty and do something like that. So from my standpoint, I'm a believer in that the customer's right, unless there are situations where they've been extremely rude or disrespectful.

Yes.

I think that's where you draw the line. But otherwise, it's just finding a solution in my mind is typically possible. And Always gonna serve you.

I'm looking at you with awe because I don't agree. I actually have had to fire a couple of customers in the last couple of weeks. And one of them, you know, I was just working and I overheard my customer service girl saying, can I— you can't speak to me like this, you can't speak to me like this, I'm gonna hang up the phone. So I said, hang up the phone. And when she got off the phone, she had to go to the bathroom and she was crying for a little while and came back. And when I asked her what happened, it was a customer who had ordered something and wanted it done faster and had made her cry by yelling and swearing on the phone.

That's not cool.

It's not cool. And so immediately I wrote to the customer and actually had to say, you're never allowed to shop with us again. I blocked her on all these platforms. And I really hold the belief that we do everything right. We're trying so hard as business owners to get this right. And of course, when we're wrong, we have to admit it. But sometimes the customer can be not very nice.

Yeah.

And what do we do in that situation?

Well, I think it's about being assertive and definitely drawing a line, like clearly articulating to them, you know, what's going on and that like it's best we take a pause and maybe speak about this later. But as I said before, I think the moment someone's being rude or disrespectful, I think that's where it's pretty challenging and you've got to just draw the line and yeah, not accept that. I do think it's, still important to resolve the issue and not kind of walk away from it. But yeah, still from my standpoint, it's like in most scenarios, I think the customer's right. And sometimes like the thing that I really dislike is when a business owner complains about a customer. It's like, oh my gosh, like you should be grateful that you have one. Like the opposite problem is far worse. So yeah, from my standpoint, the customer is right up until the point that they're disrespectful or rude. And yeah, that's where you just got to make sure you like hold your own.

Please don't check my last 2 Instagram posts because it's me complaining about the customer. But I think we were justified in that situation and I would never ever do that to any customer who's just unhappy. It was the yelling, I think, and the swearing and the inappropriate behaviour.

Yeah, I think you did the right thing, for what it's worth.

Thank you. Okay, how did you deal at Finder? Did you have any really uncomfortable situations with clients or customers? How did you deal with them? Were you the one in charge of talking to them? Did you just block them like I did? Like, how did you handle that?

Honestly, um, one of the crazy things I decided to do in the early days was to have a phone number on the website and would get calls all day long. It's like, you know, people would think we were the bank and sometimes, you know, get really upset with us thinking that we are whoever they wanted to speak to.

Yeah.

Um, and yeah, often we'd end up kind of helping them out. And that was like, again, we never really got paid for that, but we'd effectively this customer service hotline for people comparing financial products. Um, I remember there's one specific scenario where somebody was calling me several times a week and was quite nervous around this situation they're in. And I'd be on the phone for a couple of hours at a time. My face would be melting with the phone on the side of my head. And yeah, I helped them through it and they got through those scenarios. For me, I think we became a really great referrer to financial services kind of hotlines and call centres that can really help out people in challenging situations. But yeah, it's difficult. And so that's the kind of customer side. And then You know, in terms of partners that list on Finder, we've had lots of situations over the years, and I think that being responsive, being, you know, transparent and quick to act on a problem is the key. Um, and, you know, mistakes happen. That's the reality, right?

Yeah, yeah. And having a conversation with them actually does solve a lot of things.

Agree.

So I love that you put a phone number on there, even though it seems so silly. When we added a phone number to our website as well, and we get calls about everything, It actually is the most unscalable thing, right? But actually helps to develop such a strong community for what you're building. And I totally get that, but you do get the random phone calls that aren't so pleasant. So I think this cafe owner was talking about how he's raised prices and that's why the customer was unhappy. What is the right way to raise prices? Especially, I know in this economy it is actually quite difficult. There are— the costs are increasing. And we hate, as a business owner, we really don't want to increase them. What do you do or what would you recommend a business do?

Yeah, I think giving sufficient notice that it's, you know, the price is increasing. If they're a regular, maybe put up a little notice from this date, prices are increasing to whatever amount it is. I've seen some coffee shops actually, due to the coffee prices just going through the roof in the last 12 months, change prices more than once in the space of, you know, a few months. And I think a company needs to operate sustainably, a small business especially, and Yeah, just being transparent, communicating that it's like outside of their control, this situation. And yeah, I think customers will understand like it's not— they're not the only people doing it, right? So yeah, and it's necessary to really address your pricing to make sure that your company operates in a sustainable way.

I think there's also a way to do it publicly. So I am such a huge advocate of posting about it on social media as well to say we do apologise and we hate that we have to increase our prices, but we are going to do it and we're going to do it on this date. And I think you can get a lot of community feedback, but also support. So that's something that it's not just customer by customer as they come in, but actually posting about it and being open to everyone about it will actually gather you more support than it will enemies.

Totally. And I think if you share some of the data behind it, like, you know, price of X product or whatever it is.

Yes.

As part of our production costs has increased by a certain percentage.

Exactly.

I remember I was following a chocolate brand that like, you know, handmade chocolate brand that was talking about cocoa prices.

Yeah.

And yeah, like it was just really cool seeing how transparently they were talking to their audience and saying like, you know, look, unfortunately we're increasing prices here, but I think they were educating people along the way of like, you know, how volatile the whole thing is and how much they really value the quality of the product they develop. And so they weren't willing to compromise on that and use low-quality products. So therefore the price was increasing. And yeah, I thought it was really great messaging.

I love that. And it builds to so much loyalty too. Jeremy, now it is time for the Growth Hotline, and this is where a business owner will come in and share their challenges, and it's up to you and me to unpack them and solve it for them. Today we are joined by Lindsay Adam, founder of Winny Parks, Australian-owned natural rubber teethers. A quick note before we begin though, anything that we share today is general advice only. Always speak with the right professionals when it comes to your specific business situation. Lindsay, welcome to Unfinished Business.

Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here with you both. Really nervous, but really excited to unpack some of my business issues that I do have at the moment as well.

Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself? So maybe your origin story and what you actually do?

Yeah, definitely. So I'm a mum of 3 now, but the origin of Weenie Park started in those earlier days. We love a, we love a good story. So of course it started with a redundancy. Some maternity leave and a lot of stress on my part. So I was working a role I loved. I was made redundant whilst on maternity leave, and I ended up having to scramble to get back into the workforce. I took a 5-day job, no flexibility, great money, but I was crying every single day. And like, this was a national role for one of Australia's biggest brands. It was a dream role for anybody. But now that I was a mum, it was hitting differently. I couldn't do it. I was crying. I was away from the house from 6 AM till 7 PM. I had a 6-month baby at home. So a lot of it stemmed from that stress, that desire to do better, be better, be present for my family. Now if we fast forward a little bit, I was having my second lot of maternity leave with my son Winston, and we were sitting on the floor. Now as we've all seen, teethers being cut open, mold on the inside— it really baffled me. I was like, what? I I cut our very famous teether open. I saw the mould on the inside and I thought to myself, we need to do better. We need to be better. We need to do better. I want to be better as a mum and I don't want to have these hidden nasties around my children. So I started kind of looking for different brands online. I still wanted natural rubber. I love sustainability. I love naturality as a mum in my house and making sure I'm exposing my children to the right things, not the wrong things.

Yeah.

But for me, I just wasn't getting the neutral vibe I was looking for and something with no hole. So as I sat there on the floor with my son, I started to draw up my first designs for Winnie Parks. I love Australiana, of course, so Banks the koala was my very first design. And it was really funny because my son was in the thick of teething, so I knew exactly what I wanted. I was like, it needs, needs, you know, to have this sort of thing. It needs to be easy to hold. It needs some texture here. It needs to be nice and squishy for jaw development.

Yeah.

So I literally sat there on my floor in my living room, Wiggles blasting in the background, to keep my son busy and my daughter, writing my lists of things I needed and wanted. And I think the drive from the redundancy really made me think, I want a better life, not only for me, but for other women in business as well. And I always talk about my business talking about, you know, making a difference. So not just for me, not just for the planet, not just for our little kids, but one day, and that's what kind of brought me here and I put my hand up as well, I want to have a business that supports mums and women in business that supports flexibility so other mums never have to feel the way that I felt when I was made redundant and when I had to go back to work full-time and missing my child, you know, my baby's childhood.

Yeah.

So, you know, that's the, that's the grand kind of scheme and where I really want this brand to be and where I want it to go is to be a really good support network down the line. Now, at the moment, it's just me, um, so I don't quite have that ability to make an impact in other women's lives too much besides You know, the people that I bring on as brand reps, I've got my designers, I've got the people who make my boxes, you know, they're all mums in business as well. So that's the exciting part for me is that I'm making a small difference for them.

It's so interesting that you say that because you make it sound so small, like it's just me and I'm not actually making an impact right now. I think you're making a huge impact. You have no idea on the women around you, like what you are doing. And even just people who are also working in a 9 to 5 who think, I also want to do what she's doing. Even those mums who look at you and you have no idea, and they are looking at you like they could do that too. I just think it's really amazing what you're doing. I would have loved to have that when my kids were little too. So I was wondering if I could actually see your products, if you have them.

Of course, I brought them with me. I absolutely love them. So I'll pass around. We've got Banks the Koala first. So this was my first design. And of course, having a little baby, you need something that's really easy to hold. And we've got nice Big chewy ears, lots of, um, you know, kind of texture, a hard tail. Did you want to have a feel of that one as well?

Should I have a chew or a feel?

Look, if you feel like you need to chew it, we're not going to judge you.

Yeah, you're right, it's actually great. It is really good.

It's so funny when I do the expos, like, I have people going, oh, I just thought that was something cute to sit on a shelf, and then they kind of touch it and they're like, my goodness, it's flexible, it's chewy.

It's a stress reliever.

It is.

Squishy.

Squishy. And then we had Maeve the Mermaid. So this one designed lots of texture, easy hold points as well. So that was my second design that I kind of went into. And then we've got Diplo the Dino Dragon. So these, I should say, are part of my Magical range designed and helped by my children. So Winston was 3 at the time, Parker would have been 5. And we sat down and we said, what do we want? You know, what's— what are we into? What are kids loving and what's going to make them want to pick up something in their later years as well? Because for me, with sustainability, I don't just want it to be a teether. Like, this is still going in the bath every single day with my children because there's no holes. So it means that they can really be played with for a long period of time. Because once you're done with a teether, right, you're kind of like, what do I do with it?

Yeah.

So we need to make sure it does have a little bit of longevity there too.

And you have mentioned quite a few unique selling propositions just now. Like, you've actually said them without even knowing. What is the one thing that you market for? What is the unique selling proposition? You've got sustainability, you're helping mums, you're creating things that can go from baby to toddler to even beyond. What is the thing that you like to market or the thing that resonates the most with your customers?

I always say that you don't know what you don't know. And as a new mum or even second, third time mum, you might not be aware of the dangers and the hidden mould and toxicity within your toys. So the biggest thing for me is I focus on product safety so you can enjoy your teething journey. No one enjoys a teething journey, let's be honest about that.

It's awful.

I'm just going through it with my youngest now. It's horrible. You know, you're up all night. So you just want quick, easy solutions, something that your child's going to love. So for me, my biggest thing that I talk to is how safe my products are, that it is hole-free. It can go wherever your child goes because often, you know, we're trying to put them in the bath and they're taking things with them.

No, I want the remote or—

Or the squishy, like fluffy toy.

Yeah, something they shouldn't have. Can go in the bath, always wants to go in the bath. So for me, it's creating a friend and a product for them that can go anywhere they go. So safety— so sustainability and safety is a really big thing for me when it comes to my children.

I actually want to get into the challenges. I want to know, what is the biggest problem that you're facing in your business right now?

I would definitely say brand awareness. Now I want to break it down a little bit because I would like to talk to the fact that, you know, I've been in sales for 20 years. I am comfortable in sales. I have been a national account manager for one of the biggest brands in Australia. So I actually have almost 100 small wholesale doors. I say small. These guys are amazing. They're all family, mum, parent-driven baby doors. So I do have 100 stores across Australia.

Wow.

Which is amazing. Like before last year, I only had about 15. So in the last 12 months, I've pushed myself Into the wholesale direction because that is what I'm comfortable doing. I've done sales for a long time. It's an easy no-brainer for me. I can talk. I can make connections. It is about community as a parent, but where I'm struggling is marketing and that brand awareness. Like you put me on social media, I freeze. I absolutely freeze, and I don't know what to do. I'm the worst millennial in the world. It's I I get stuck. I don't know how to drive my business. Yeah, I would love to do paid ads, so I. I've never done a paid ad. I've pressed boost on Instagram.

I think all of us small business start, you know, we—

I'll just boost this post and you get absolutely nowhere and you freak out because you're spending your money. You know, when you work for someone else, you're spending someone else's money. But when it's your business, I literally withdrew from my offset account to start this. Yes, it's my money. It's my biggest hurdle right now is feeling safe to spend my money in marketing to get results. Essentially, you know, and grow my business. Wholesale's great, but we know that when you can sell through your own channel, that's when you see more profit. I can really innovate a little bit more and make more products.

Okay, so brand awareness. No, I think that is so important for you. I love that you can get into wholesale. You know, that's a skill that not many people have, by the way, so that's actually awesome. Okay, so brand awareness is such a big one for all small businesses. Jeremy, what would you do?

Well, I mean, I loved hearing your story and, um, in looking at your website, I felt that like it's not really as highlighted or present there. So for me, I think really elevating the story to be like the thing that people remember, um, I think is really key. And, you know, I think the story then, you know, off the back of it, it's like, what's the hook?

Yeah.

Like, what's the thing that, um, you know, the, you know, 3 seconds you've got of some of someone's attention, how do you alert them to kind of the issue that you're effectively solving with your product? through your content, having that story and just like kind of the jarring thing of maybe like just cutting a competitor's thing open and showing the grubby inside of it. It's like, and so we built a new thing that doesn't, you know, no holes or whatever, you know, however you describe it. I feel like, yeah, the hook and like one really viral kind of repetitive content piece could be enough to really get the account cranking and obviously an amplifier.

Well, he stole my idea.

Yes.

But actually that is so brilliant. So the way that I would do it, if you sometimes you're not comfortable to get on camera, One thing you could do is not get on camera and just have your hands on camera.

Yeah.

That is to cut up that old, like, competitor one, open it up, show the mold, and that's always the hook.

Yeah.

And it starts always with a different competitor every single time. There is a TikTok account which I think would be really good for you.

Yeah.

And there's a guy who basically opened up— he cut up Hermès bags and Prada bags and Chanel bags, and he showed the workmanship of it, and he actually broke down the cost of it, and he said, this is actually not worth what you're paying for it, and so on and so forth. Turns out he actually has his own business of making bags. Oh, I see. So by the time he started showcasing it, people trusted him implicitly because he'd shown the breakdown of all these other bags. And he showed how he uses the leather and where he sources it from and how it's made. That's exactly what I think you need to do.

Yep.

Because I think going viral, I know it's, it's not the goal of life, but it's really good to get you started on the brand awareness journey. And then I think another thing that I would do, and tell me if you disagree, But I think you should get other people and leverage their audiences. So the creators, the micro creators, the mums, very niche local experts, mums in Facebook groups who you can put paid spend behind, who have never had to do that before, but people trust them. You know, they're the local experts and that's— they're the school mums that everyone listens to. Actually using them to leverage their audiences as well is a really good way to get brand awareness too. I don't know, have you ever used influencers for Finder?

Definitely. And I've seen other brands as well. I think there's kind of the big influencers that everybody follows, and then there's like a micro influencer group that are happy to be gifted a product essentially, um, because they're on the path to like wanting to be a bigger account.

Yeah.

Um, and like leaning into that, it's like less, um, I guess impactful in those initial posts, but doing it at scale I think is really effective. Um, yeah, so I think that's an interesting one. And yeah, building on the kind of idea we had around the kind of moldy, you know, photo or video, whatever it is that shows what's inside, you could even do like a test of like the bacteria and like Talk about like how bad it is. And like, I think there's like a real interest around, well, how bad is it? And like, what are the sort of consequences of having this sort of bacteria or mould exposed to, you know, the exposure to your children? And it'd be, yeah, cool to have something like that as a follow-up.

My brain's already ticking under a microscope.

Yeah, that's a good one.

Like go down the scientific method. I think that's so cool to actually get a little piece of it, put it under the microscope and look at the germs. Gross. And then I guess the last thing I would say is you really do need to get started on paid ads. It is going to be the biggest driver of your business, not just for brand awareness but also just making more sales. And there is nothing that will beat it. So once you have a really good organic engine going, I do think even if it's a small amount per day, even if you're starting at $15 a day, it's a really good way to get in front of new audiences without you having to physically create content because it's running for you behind the scenes. And I don't want you to do anything other than just go to YouTube and find a really good video on how to set it all up and just start small.

Yeah, just dedicate— I can't even speak right now, I'm that excited. Dedicate some time. I think I definitely need to do that. And, you know, like I said, it's scary. It's your own money. You're jumping into something, the unknown. But thank goodness for YouTube. We can definitely jump on there. I know I'm reading a certain book that's very helpful as well at the moment. But there's— yeah, I'm excited to kind of dive a little further into that.

Awesome. So I guess if we could summarise for her what she needs to do today, if there are like 3 things, I think you're completely right. I think there's 4 things. Because Jeremy was talking about the website, just making sure your story is really on there because people are going to resonate with that, especially because you're targeting mums and they really want to know that they can trust you. I would say the disgusting videos on TikTok are really important as well. Paid ads and influencers. And it sounds like a lot to do, but starting really small on each one of those things, mainly the organic content, just figuring out how you can get that going all the time. And my last point, the 5th point, which is a bonus point, stop boosting your posts on Instagram.

I stopped. It didn't work, and I was like, bye-bye money.

Yeah. Lindsay, thank you so much for coming onto Unfinished Business. It was so nice to unpack this challenge with you.

Thank you. It's been eye-opening for me today.

And Jeremy, thank you. Your expertise is so amazing, and I'm just so glad that you could be with us today. Thank you.

It was great to be on, on the episode. I hope so.

Join us in our next episode for more Unfinished Business from Vodafone Business. In the meantime, if you enjoy this episode, give us 5 stars, share it with a friend or fellow business owner, and spread the lessons around. I'm Anita Sarkear. Thank you for listening, and we will see you next time.